The Firefighter Health Wake-Up Call With John Hutton of Interceptor Health

Travis McGaha: [00:00:00] John, good to have you here with me today. Thank 

John Hutton: you very much for having me. 

Travis McGaha: So we just got back from the SAFR conference in Raleigh, and I thought it'd be interesting to sit and go over some of the numbers we got from, uh, a survey we were kind of, not informally doing, but doing with firefighters there.

Yeah. Do you ... Do ... And I know you and I kind of had a little joke going on about what's the worst killer, cardiac or cancer, 'cause I think we each had interest in both of those. By the way, this is John Hutton. You'll get to meet him a little bit more. He's gonna get his own special episode before too long.

But, uh, John, I just ... I wrote down some of the notes here and, uh, about some of the causes, and I wanted to get kind of your feedback on it, 'cause you've been around, um, the military. You've been around medicine for a long time. Mm-hmm. You have a lot of input, and you're with Interceptor Health right now, and a lot of this falls into your wheelhouse right now.

Indeed. So no doubt the two biggest things everybody kept saying over and over were cardiac and cancer. The two [00:01:00] big Cs have been killing firefighters for a long time. 

John Hutton: Mm-hmm. 

Travis McGaha: What ... Did you find that surprising at all? 

John Hutton: No, I, I really did not. But, um, what I did find surprising was as I dove into it ... Because before I s- really started doing this, um, I started to research, and I wanted to know everything I could know about everything.

And it's when you go a level down and you identify some of the causes and some of the, the reasons that you don't necessarily come intuitively to mind. Right. And, you know, for instance, with, uh, you know, chemicals, PFOS and what have you, you've got, you know, protective gear and masks and such like that, but until you do the research and find out that, you know, the equipment is not infallible, uh, nothing is infallible, that this increases the risk.

Uh, the adrenaline surges, the sleep patterns, uh, that are involved, all of these things work [00:02:00] together to create somewhat of, if I could borrow the term, perfect storm which tends to drive the incidence of these, uh, unfortunate health conditions, uh, well above the normal with respect to our firefighters.

Travis McGaha: Yeah, no doubt. And you know, with us coming up on our 10th anniversary with the North Carolina Firefighter Cancer Alliance, we've talked a lot about cancer, and we know it comes from everything from the stuff that's burning in fires now- Mm-hmm ... because they're different than they were 30, 40 years ago. We know that stuff stays in our gear a long time apart from the PFOS.

John Hutton: Mm-hmm. 

Travis McGaha: Whenever you go to a fire, it's gonna stay in there unless you make an effort to wash it out. In fact, we've learned that if you just simply wash your gear- It's gonna reduce the amount of carcinogen material that's lock- locked in almost back down to the pre-fire level. So there's some really cool stuff to see there.

But, you know, uh, the cardiac por- portion, um, you know, we've always known that's been an [00:03:00] issue for firefighters. We try to be healthy, but, you know, we've got the Hometown Hero act here. Mm-hmm. So if you have a, you know, heart attack within 24 hours of an active, uh, active scene, guess what? You're considered a line of duty death.

We don't want it to ever get to that point, but- Of 

John Hutton: course ... 

Travis McGaha: but we've known it's been a problem. So those two weren't so, um, spectacular, I guess. But here's another one I like, sleep 

John Hutton: Yeah, sleep is another one I don't think I was aware of. And again, that's, th- that, we actually found, or as I looked at the list, I saw three categories of things that the firefighters were answering.

Right. You see the actual, uh, disease states, uh, cancer, um, cardiac, a lot of, of, of, uh, mental health challenges that these- Mm-hmm ... good folks experience. But then when you get to sleep and some of these others, now we're clearly in the ca- the, uh, category of underlying causes. Right. So it's not really the same thing, but it's part of the same continuum, and it, [00:04:00] it shows an interesting awareness that the firefighting community is developing, uh, for what really they have to go after and protect against, against.

Uh, still a third category which emerged was, uh, was, um, environment-type factors. Um, you know, one could, uh, look at the fact that they are, uh, immersed in diesel fumes quite a bit as they're working- Right ... on their trucks and what have you. And there were, I wanna say... Oh, geez, how, how many did we get? Um, like 15, 16, 17 different things- Right

on the list. And you, there was a definite... It was interesting because some of them were repeat answers, showing a good awareness, and then some of them were answers that, that may have been singlicate, but you know, we're dealing with an N of 17, not an N of, you know, a couple of hundred, where I think we would've really seen some very interesting correlations if that environment, uh, at the show permitted that much data gathering.

So I, [00:05:00] I really, it, it was a, an interesting educational process to go through, and whether they were younger firefighters or old, the awareness was growing amongst both groups. 

Travis McGaha: So something, it's funny you mention that. You know, we talk about sleep, and we know that's linked to your mental health. It's linked to your heart health.

All that fits together. But you did mention talking to young firefighters versus older firefighters, and there's been, there was a gamut that came through the booth. But the thing that was interesting, the younger firefighters were more concerned about the cancer, the cardiac because that's what they've been taught.

But now when you talk to the older firefighters- Mm-hmm ... the ones that have been around the learning more, they're talking about things like, uh, sleep. 

John Hutton: Mm-hmm. 

Travis McGaha: They are the ones talking about the mental health and mental fitness. They're also the ones that are talking about, "Hey, we're out of shape. We can't do our job because we're fat.

We're not working out enough. We need to improve our skills." [00:06:00] So it's really interesting to see- how different age groups are aware of probably what the other age group would be concerned with. Because you would think older guys would be concerned about cancer and cardiac, and younger people about mental health and fitness, but it's just the opposite.

It's the 

John Hutton: other way around, and I think that's because you are seeing ... And I think ultimately the younger group is gonna become aware of all of it because you're exactly right. The older firefighters are teaching and talking to the younger firefighters, the newer fire- uh, firefighters probably even during their training when they're in the academy.

Yep. They're being made aware of these things because there is a full-on effort to try to get this as early as possible, and if one can come out of, uh, of the academy, uh, at the age of, oh, let's just say 21 or 22, and they are already equipped with the knowledge that these are going to be issues, then they're already thinking About how do I avoid this?

How do I [00:07:00] not end up with, with a, a bunch of, uh, you know, plaque in my heart, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that's, that's firefighters taking care of firefighters. 

Travis McGaha: You know, it, it's really interesting. Uh, when I started talking about cancer 10, 11, 12 years ago, I would go to a station, maybe a volunteer department, pick the small town, and, um, I literally would be in a room full of people that would keep dwindling down during my two-hour presentation.

Mm-hmm. And I remember one time the, a chief said, "I don't have time for this crap. I'm going to bed." Yeah. And he literally went upstairs, went to bed, and that was it. Never woke up. Well, I don't know, I don't know about that. But there was one firefighter that stayed. Uh-huh. But as we've gotten to where we are now, you ask any firefighter, "Hey, what are, what, what are the challenges?"

like we did here. Right. Cardiac and cancer, they're right up there. Guess what? The message is out. That's the first step in the battle of saving firefighters. The first step is education, and it's obviously [00:08:00] working. I mean, we got a ways to go, but, uh ... 

John Hutton: Uh, yeah, the other one that, that I really, uh, really never gave that much thought to was the fitness and the health.

Right. And I wanna say that the, you know, the honesty, uh, the, uh, uh, and, uh, introspection where some of the firefighters said, "Yeah, I gotta, I gotta get a handle on this," um, is, "I wanna stay on the trucks, you know, I wanna keep doing my job, and I know that continuing on in an unhealthy, uh, lifestyle is not compatible with that goal."

So they are v- very actively trying to do, uh, do right by themselves in a physical sense, both in terms of diet and exercise in particular, to see if they can't, they can't, uh, trim up a little bit and, uh, get into a better position to do and, and continue doing their job. 

Travis McGaha: A- and the interesting thing about being fit

Now I'm fat and overweight. I'm not, I'm not, you know, fighting trim like, like I, like I seem to be talking about. [00:09:00] But I think the fitness is something that needs to be looked at through a lens according to your job In the fire service- Mm-hmm ... what are you doing? But the other thing is, is functional strength.

Mm-hmm. Because a lot of times we get lost in, well, how much can you bench press? You know, what, how, how long does it take you to run a mile? Those things are what we, are metrics, but what's your functional strength? Can you climb a ladder? Can you lift a given amount of weight? Can you drag a, a person, drag a dummy, whatever the case is.

The functional strength is what- Carry 

John Hutton: a hose. 

Travis McGaha: Carry a ho- exactly. 

John Hutton: I can't even imagine how much a hose weigh. I've never tried to pick up a, a roll. 

Travis McGaha: Well, when you do, like, a JAR PAT like we did when- Mm-hmm ... back in the day when I was qualifying, it would be a 50-pound vest you would have to put on- Mm-hmm ... to simulate and, and climb three flights of stairs.

That doesn't seem like much, but it, it, it can get you. 

John Hutton: It, it wasn't entirely differ, uh, uh, different from when we had to put on, uh, in, in military training- Right ... these rucksacks that were probably somewhere in the same range. Right. And, uh, you [00:10:00] know, hump up and down hil- hilly country. That's, uh, that's, that's not easy.

Travis McGaha: Yeah, so the functional strength is a huge portion of that fitness that I think that they're talking about. But also kinda along with fitness is your skillset. Are you practicing your skills, the skills you need for your job? A lot of times they in- involve swinging an ax, using a halligan. How are you gonna do that?

And guess what? If you're not- able to do those things, but you could bench press 225, doesn't mean- But what 

John Hutton: else can you do with it? Yeah, I mean, when- Exactly ... you, you look at any a- competitive athlete, uh, whether it be swimming or some sort of a track and field event, they are going through the motions and practicing the aspects of, uh...

I'm most familiar with swimming, so, uh, a guy who's a good butterflier is gonna be working on butterflies. He'll be working on starts, turns, uh, underwaters, which is what they do coming off the wall. Uh, they're gonna be practicing repetitively those things- Mm-hmm ... because those are the skillsets that are required to make them better athletes, and the coaches are [00:11:00] very good at keeping 'em on, on focus.

Travis McGaha: Yeah. And, and, and that's likewise like when we train. Training in the gear that you're gonna be fighting firing- Mm-hmm ... is critical. Yes, PFAS, that's, that's a whole different story, but you have to practice in the gear you're gonna do. You're not gonna go practice football and not wear your pads. You might warm up without 'em, but you're gonna wear your pads when you practice.

John Hutton: Yeah, I think the, the te- the not p- practicing in the gear, I mean, I look at that gear and, you know, here we are in North Carolina. I'm in Florida, and I can't even imagine how warm it gets and how quickly, uh, some of these firefighters must dehydrate- Mm-hmm ... and how, how close of a, a level of attention they have to pay to that because that's gonna be the difference between, you know, collapsing at a scene and not collapsing at a scene.

Travis McGaha: And having a cardiac event because- That as well ... dehydration plays into that. It 

John Hutton: certainly does. 

Travis McGaha: So it's amazing how tightly knit, when we talk about the cardio, the, the fitness, the car- the cancer, all of these things [00:12:00] are woven together, and that's what we're figuring out. But I had a couple others on here that I thought- Oh

had ... they were kinda cool. One of 'em was caffeine use. Caffeine's a great thing 

John Hutton: Oh boy, do I know that one. Yeah. Um, that, that's a very common thing a- amongst, I think, a lot of, uh, professions and, uh, you know, again, uh, the military's no exception. Oh, for sure. We, we like our coffee. Um, and I think you can get to the point where you're running, you know, that, that's still, uh, a...

It, it's cardio effective, so it is going to change your heart rate, and that is most certainly going to play into if there are other, other, uh, health r- risk compromises, that is a problem. It doesn't mean don't ever drink coffee again, but, you know, don't drink the whole pot. 

Travis McGaha: Right. A- and one of the things that we have figured out is that caffeine can also help your focus.

Mm-hmm. And if you have... And I know there's been times that I've been woken up at 2:00 in the morning to go [00:13:00] do an investigation. Mm-hmm. And I'm, I'm bleary-eyed, I'm not feeling great, but that cup of coffee that I drink while going to the scene, guess what? It helps me focus a little bit better on what I need to do.

Oh, yeah. And, but, uh, when you sit in a class and you see the guy that'll have three big Monsters lined up beside him- 

John Hutton: Yeah ... 

Travis McGaha: and he'll tear through two of them before lunch and one after lunch, you wonder how the heart doesn't explode, so. 

John Hutton: Yeah. It's, uh, you know, I think, uh, when you look at, uh, cigarettes and nicotine- Yep

it's the same thing. Cardio effective. Uh, uh, vasoconstriction and things like that are gonna increase blood pressure and, uh, that's, uh, certainly not a good thing. 

Travis McGaha: No, definitely not at all. So caffeine was one, but here's one that I know you and I talked a little bit about. Tourist. 

John Hutton: That I did find very interesting, um, and I, because I could correlate it with something in my own life, uh, where, uh, we used to go to Rehoboth Beach, Delaware.

Travis McGaha: Right. 

John Hutton: And before it became m- a year-round community, you would [00:14:00] have a phenomenal influx of people coming in, and a lot of people means a lot of, uh ... You know, of course, I've, I've learned that, you know, most firefighters are EMTs, and they go out on ... a lot of their percentage of calls are for health issues.

And so in the summer months at a, at a resort area, I mean people, you know, it's un- especially somebody who's not used to standing out in the heat, uh, you know, heat casualty after heat casualty after heat casualty. 

Travis McGaha: It'll get 

John Hutton: you. Um, and those firefighters are burning out the door to go help them out. And, um, plus, you know, obviously with a lot of people in a vacation, uh, resort area, you know, there's, there is a better chance of some inappropriate behavior concerning fire- 

Travis McGaha: Yep

John Hutton: which might in fact, uh, you know, cause a blaze, and then, and then you really got, 

Travis McGaha: uh, got those firefighters moving. And you know, I think it's important to get a little context about where that comment came from. I was talking to a firefighter that's in one of our beach communities. Mm-hmm. And he was saying that, you know, a couple [00:15:00] months out of the year they almost double their population, and during that window of time, he

those guys are running nonstop like you were talking about. Mm-hmm. But they're super stressed as well because they're constantly worrying about trying to manage the beach, manage the, the different things going on. So you know, we don't always think about those things. But, um, that shows that, you know, certain departments when 

John Hutton: we look at our 

Travis McGaha: health- Right

and wellness, it can be very unique to where you're at, and I thought that was a good example of that. Yeah. And, 

John Hutton: and even the stress of, of the non-fire related call, the call that's just health, I mean, there's that same adrenaline surge and sense of urgency because that's really the ultimate thing they do is they save lives and protect property, and in that order.

And they are after, you know ... Every time they end up with somebody's life in their hands- 

Travis McGaha: Right ... 

John Hutton: I can't even think, you know, doing that on a daily basis is really, uh, really gonna put stress out there for them. And the [00:16:00] stress is gonna, again, uh, increase cortisol levels. You're, they're peaked. 

Travis McGaha: Yep. 

John Hutton: Um, and heart rate once again goes up.

And 

Travis McGaha: they stay peaked and up for a while. Yeah. And that's not good. It's not good. We're not meant to run that way. 

John Hutton: Yeah, absolutely. But, uh, you know, we, we, yet we have a, a good community out there that, that puts it on the line every day. They volunteered to do this. They're committed to it. And you know- You know, it's, it's a darn good thing we have them because how many people would make it if we didn't have them?

Um- For sure ... so, uh, you know, in doing what we're doing, you know, to, to participate in the health of, of firefighters, to me is a, it's a pretty good way to finish the race as it were for me. 

Travis McGaha: Well, I got you. And we're gonna get into your story another day, but- Right ... but I, I really, you know, you've been around the medical industry for more than what?

30 plus years maybe. I, I'm not, I'm not call- 35 ... I'm not calling you old, but you know, about 30, 30 [00:17:00] plus years. Yeah. 

John Hutton: Math doesn't lie. 

Travis McGaha: Well, no, I'm, I'm, I'm kind of not far behind you. But when we look at these things, and from your experience, when you look at this list- Mm-hmm ... this just some of the things we got, do you think a lot of this is preventable or can be addressed through prevention?

John Hutton: I, I would think so. I mean, ab- about the one thing that, uh... and I don't know if it really arrived on the list is, you know, genetics are genetics. Sure. But at least being aware of the genetics, one cannot then stack on all the other risk factors and, and give a, a genetic tendency for, say, cardiac issues a head start.

Right. So yes, absolutely there is. You can't control the genetics, but you can control all of the other cause factors, diet, exercise. Uh, you know, you've got a choice to get some rest or go do something. Well, maybe you ch- pick, get some rest, you know, keep your head in a, in a better place. Um- 

Travis McGaha: Well, you know, that's [00:18:00] even like talking about cancer.

One of the things we've learned about cancer, um, we're all subject to the same exposures for the most part. Right. And we try to limit them, but- It's almost like if you have a piece of wood that's extra dry, it's been out in the sun, it's not had any water in it, it's more likely, it's easier for it to catch fire than- Absolutely

than one that's damp. So if we have a genetic predisposition to something like cancer, these exposures, yeah, they affect all of us- Mm-hmm ... but it can affect a certain demographic even more. So- Absolutely ... it's that type of stuff that's important to, to understand. And that's why things such as enhanced screenings- 

John Hutton: Mm-hmm

Travis McGaha: physicals, um, imaging, all of that plays into helping to prevent a lot of these issues. Now, some of them are just things we're gonna have to live with 'cause it comes with the territory, but at the same- Of course ... but at the same time, there's a lot we can do to make our careers a lot longer. 

John Hutton: Yeah. I, I, I think you can say, you know, [00:19:00] universally that early detection in so many different health issues is absolutely crucial, uh, to i- identify, uh, build-up of, uh, of plaque in a, in an artery.

Uh- Right ... it is to be able to monitor it. There are medications for it, uh, that work. And, uh, in some cases there are, you know, medical procedures to be performed that 

Travis McGaha: will prolong life for many, many years. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think Interceptor Health is, uh, cutting the way for that. Y'all are, are, are, are finding ways to make the imaging, the physicals, and that part of it much more, uh, effective for firefighters to help us live longer and have a more satisfying career.

John Hutton: Absolutely. Absolutely. And like I said, good, good, uh, good objective. It's a good role. 

Travis McGaha: Yeah. Well, you know, uh, you may have heard some background noise. You might have seen me adjusting the camera a little bit. We are actually in a hotel right now, uh, going over these numbers and everything. But I had the privilege of having John and [00:20:00] the Interceptor team with us over at our booth at SAFER.

And, uh, we look forward to working with you guys some more before too long. But, uh- 

John Hutton: Absolutely ... 

Travis McGaha: so if people wanna learn a little bit more about you, Interceptor Health, and all that, where can they find out about that at? 

John Hutton: Well, we are quite, quite, uh, not quite done with the website yet, but we're getting there.

In fact, we have a little, uh, uh, a call a little later on for Vaughn and I to review the content. And if you're still here, we would love your input. Cool. And, um, we'll, uh, once we really have that online we'll put the word out. I'm, I'm not thinking it's gonna take much more than a couple, couple more weeks.

Travis McGaha: Okay. Well, very good. Is there an email that people could email you at if they got a question? 

John Hutton: We are shooting for john.hutton@interceptorhealth.com and it's J-O-H-N.H-U-T-T-O-N @interceptorhealth.com.

Travis McGaha: And the cool part is if you send that email to him, John, you'll get it. 

John Hutton: Absolutely. Th- And I will answer it 

Travis McGaha: A- and that's the nice thing about you guys. Th- there's no... It's full transparency. You can talk to the- Mm-hmm ... talk to the [00:21:00] boss man, so to speak, right off the get-go. And, uh, if you're a chief that's wondering about NFPA physicals and stuff like that, I encourage you to talk to these guys.

They can, uh, um, open your eyes to what's going on. But anyway, we just wanna take a few minutes to talk a little bit here on All Clear. Um, we're gonna have a few more clips, uh, with some other folks from SAFER as we go f- forth. But, uh, as we always say, light your fire within. 

I'm Travis. This is the All Clear podcast. I've got Arash Kasebi with me yet again. Um, Arash, why don't you tell them who you are?

Hey, uh, I'm Arash Kasebi. I'm a post-doc research scholar at NC State University working under Dr. Orman at the Textile Protection and Comfort Center. Uh, outside of that, I'm also a volunteer firefighter at Fairview Fire Department in Apex, North Carolina. How many years you been doing that now? Uh, doing that since around 2014, 20, 2015, around there.

I started out at Northern Wake Fire Department- I got you ... for about 10 years, and then, uh, switched over to Fairview about a year and a half ago. So is it more fun being a firefighter or more fun working in the science world? Oof. [00:22:00] Ugh. That puts me in a trap. I have to say that I just enjoy doing both because of the bridge that it puts you on because you get to see the cool science that goes into firefighting.

And- Dr. Orman will like that answer. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Uh, but at the same time, being able to take the insight from the fire service and being able to, uh, administer that through good scientific practices and make sure that all the firefighting research that we do is relevant to firefighters- Mm-hmm ... so that way when we do it, uh, it's something that firefighters can use either through better standards, better products, or through better practices through things like their SOPs or, uh, their strategies and tactics on the fire ground.

Very good. So I know when we were walking up here to sit down, you were talking about a lot of stuff going at NC State right now. Can you kinda maybe let us in on some of the cool things that are happening? Yeah. One of the major things that we're focusing on right now is the transition that the fire service is undergoing from, uh, the PFAS containing products or the fluorinated products to the non-fluorinated products.

So- Right ... those main products [00:23:00] are going to be the firefighting foams, as well as the PPE or the firefighter turnout gear. Uh, we're seeing a lot of different product lines come out that are switching from, uh, things like, uh, DWR finishes or durable water repellent finishes, uh, fluorine-free foams where, uh, there are certain capabilities that they have that, um...

Well, I guess, uh, they have, uh, they don't have s- certain capabilities that the PFAS foams did. Right. So for example, uh, PFAS foams have, um, different form filling layers so that way it could have better effect on the fire, uh, whereas newer foams now don't really have that as much so you have to rely solely on that foam blanket.

So one of the things I remember Dr. Brian Norman, who you work with very closely, mentioned years ago you guys came to Concord and gave a symposium for us, and one of the things he said was that there at that time were not a lot of options that the PFAS materials provided. Yep. Would you say that science has changed?

Would you say [00:24:00] there's more things becoming pr- uh, commercially available now that can give some of that same protection? Yeah, there's more products out there than the last time that we met. Uh, there's more, uh, options as far as the moisture barriers go in terms of switching from the, uh, fluorinated moisture barriers to the non-fluorinated.

Sure. Uh, and the same goes for the outer shells, where we're seeing different types of, uh, DWRs, uh, that mainly right now we're seeing that the newer non-fluorinated, uh, barriers that are on the DWR finishes, uh, they are hydrophobic, but they're not oleophobic. So your products like diesel fuel, gasoline, and hydraulic fluid, uh, we're seeing that those are more readily soaking into, uh, the outer shell of newer released, um, turnout gear than we are, than before 2022 or so.

I, I know that when you bring up PFAS anywhere near a firefighter, they'll have an opinion. Yeah, they'll have an opinion. Um- Yeah ... I think, uh, throughout we've seen a almost like an industry-wide knee-jerking action- Yep ... to the topic because, one, uh, it's, it's new [00:25:00] to us. Uh, it's something that we've, um, really seen as a possible threat, and as such, you know, it's something that we do as firefighters.

We often, uh, do risk assessments not only with the job, but also, uh, the logistics, the products, and everything that revolves around the job, including our gear. Yeah. Uh, so and like other things that we're doing now, we're trying to make sure that firefighters can retire, that they can live healthily, and they can make it to use those pensions that we work hard for.

Yep. And at the same time, be able to still effectively do their jobs, so that way any products they get now, uh, will still allow them to have similar or better capabilities of continuing the tasks that they do, whether it's structural firefighting, uh, WUI, uh, wildland firefighting, or fire investigators.

Yes. And the fire investigator stuff kind of falls in my world, and, and I... it makes me feel good to know that people are s- are concerned about all those different like smaller aspects of firefighting. But, uh, so anything else we can look forward to? Maybe any new technologies for cleaning or anything like that?[00:26:00] 

Ooh, yes. Uh, we're looking at different ways that you can clean the gear that are starting to take traction nationwide. So- I gotcha ... that includes things like liquid CO2 cleaning and super critical CO2 cleaning. Um, very new to us in the fire service, but, uh, it's basically a new way of washing the gear, so that way it's more able to, uh, take down a lot of different hydrocarbon-based products that come from structure fires, a lot of different, uh, PAH, or polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons.

I won't say that twice. Not- Yeah ... that's too smart of a word for me. Yeah. But, uh, also looking at how we can clean, uh, the other gear better, such as your SCBA materials, uh, boots, gloves, and helmets, uh, as well as the products that come from, uh, lithium ion battery fires, like those from EVs. Right. Right. I know that's a- another big one that we'll have to get into sometime.

But good old soap and water, is it still good? Good old soap and water, and the timing of it is more important than, uh, we realize. Uh, any chance that you're able to do, uh, soap and water or some type of cleaning on the fire [00:27:00] ground- Sure ... uh, the better. Because, uh, if you can leave as much of those contaminants on scene, uh, as you can, then that's less contamination that's going to land in other places, whether it's the, the cabs of our first outs, the compartments, other people's hands, and, uh, other parts of the station.

So if you can do some type of preliminary washing of that gear before you put it back in, uh, the compartment or the cab, uh, the much better you're gonna be off, whether you're using liquid CO2 or standardized washing afterwards. You know, uh, 10 years ago, the North Carolina Firefighter Cancer Alliance was established.

Yeah. And one of our first actions, we produced a video called the Concord DECON Model, based off of what we were doing in Concord, where I worked professionally. And a lot of the same stuff you're talking about is what we were preaching then. Wash it on, on site. At least get the crud off of it, bag it up, take it back, and do whatever you need to.

So the science hadn't changed, but we're learning new stuff, I would say. Oh, yeah. So do we, too. Yeah. Um, one thing we're getting better at is making [00:28:00] sure that whatever we, uh, find out about the contaminants and how to get them off, uh, that we have ways that firefighters can adopt methods of getting rid of those contaminants in ways that aren't going to, uh, really hamper their current SOPs, uh, aren't going to mess with the culture of fire departments.

But in some ways, uh, they should because of how, uh, the more that we find out about these different types of threats to us- Yeah ... uh, the more that we have to change as a fire service. Yeah. And that's not gonna take just the academic institutions and manufacturers. It's gonna take everyone that's involved with this.

Cultural change happens one conversation at a time. You don't make a big push. I also hold w- also heard, uh, one retirement at a time. Yeah. But that's a different story. Yeah. For s- for sure. For sure. But, uh, yeah. All right. But cool. Now, thank you for taking time to come and meet us here at Safer and to talk, and, uh, we look forward to talking to you again soon. Yes, sir. Thank you. All right. Appreciate it. 

Good to see you at South Atlantic Fire Rescue Expo. Absolutely. So I got to tell you a story about Kim. How long have I known you? What? Seven, eight, nine? It's been a long time. Maybe, but I've been [00:29:00] working for CSU for almost 20 years, so I don't know. So what is CSU? Let's talk about that first. Columbia Southern University, we are a 100% online university.

Our home office is in Orange Beach, Alabama, but we are 25,000 students nationwide, and I've had the pleasure of speaking up to 30 of those students and graduates here in the last two days at South Atlantic Fire Rescue Expo. So I've got to be honest, I got my bachelor's degree from Columbia Southern. This is not a sales pitch, I promise.

But I want to let you guys know that when we talk about extra education in the fire service, people freak out. Why is Columbia Southern not a school that you should be scared of? Well, we are geared towards first responders and the working adult. Right. So we have many degree programs in safety and emergency services.

And, um, [00:30:00] our, the hallmark of CSU is our flexibility- Yep ... and our affordability, and also our credit transfer. Yes. Um, because we look at first responders' training certifications, any college that they've had, a military service record, if perhaps that applies to them, and we factor all of that in when they are looking at an associate's or a bachelor's degree.

And that is 100% true. They were able to look at my transcript and determine what I could do, what I needed to take, what I needed remediation on. I'm not good at math. Uh, but so Kim, when someone's looking at a school, not just Columbia Southern, but in general, when a fire service professional, maybe they're a chief officer or a captain, what should they be looking for in a school?

Well, I would say what fits their schedule the best. Because if it's not doable for you, then your chance of completion, of, of course, diminishes. But here at CSU, [00:31:00] we are 100% there for our students. W- customer service is a huge part of our business model, and we help our students every step of the way to be successful and towards completion of that degree.

So do you have any idea what the completion rate is for students who begin at Columbia Southern? I do not, off the top of my head. Yeah, that's fine. It means we can- But it is available. That information is available on our website. Our graduation rates are available on our site. But I will say this. Where I work professionally, Concord Fire, every person that I know that has started Columbia Southern has graduated, generally with a bachelor's degree, and they're very happy with their experience.

We preach that all the time. So do you wanna talk a little bit about, um, a little bit about the partnership programs that you guys set up with a lot of departments? Yes, we do have partnerships. Of course, we have a part- partnership with Concord Fire. Right. Um, here, this is a booklet. So our partnerships, we partner with fire [00:32:00] departments all over the United States, and it offers all

It's, there's no cost or enrollment model to become a CSU learning partner. And it does offer benefits, a 10% tuition discount, and that discount does extend to immediate family members. But we also award scholarships, and under our tuition and financing tab under our website, you will find information on all of our scholarship offerings, including learning partner scholarships.

So I, I do wanna talk about this for a minute, so I'm gonna kind of deviate away from Southern, Columbia Southern specifically. Check with your municipality, check with your department, see if there are any tuition reimbursement programs available. That was one of the things that helped me graduate without any student debt.

And there are so many people that have student debt now, we have to be careful of that. That's true. So that's one of the other beautiful things about Columbia Southern, they'll help you find a way to get your education. [00:33:00] We will. So. We will. And we've also, our programs have also been approved for federal student aid, and that information is also available on our website under the tuition and financing tab.

And I, I'm gonna point again on that. If you have not applied for FAFSA, you should. It will help you, particularly if you're an older adult like I was, that when I got my bachelor's degree, it makes a big difference. So we just wanna take a minute to talk to the folks here at Columbia Southern, and it's good to see you again, Kim.

It's so good to see you, Travis.